George W. Bush

[jduster]

Even though I disagree with him on religion, I still believe he was a good president.  I am expecting nearly all members of this community to disagree with me, but I welcome a discussion.

[Will]

I respectfully disagree. What do you think it was that made George W. Bush a good president? I'm looking back over his presidency and I don't see one thing that ended up going well.

[joeactor]

GWB...

Pros: He was decisive and stuck to his guns.

Cons: Most of the decisions were bad judgment, ill-informed, or just plain wrong.
(and the consequences were lives, misery, economic and intellectual turmoil)

The democrats could definitely learn to be more decisive (or at least grow a backbone, imho).

My parents always said that anyone could grow up to be president, and after GWB, I believe them!

Your Mileage Will Probably Vary...

[AnimatedDirt]

I respectfully disagree. What do you think it was that made George W. Bush a good president? I'm looking back over his presidency and I don't see one thing that ended up going well.

He was/is a plethora of entertaining material for the comics.

[joeactor]

He was/is a plethora of entertaining material for the comics.

Definitely in the "Pro" column!

[Will]

He was/is a plethora of entertaining material for the comics.

Touche! The Daily Show would have been a lot less interesting had the neoconservatives not been in power.

[jduster]

I respectfully disagree. What do you think it was that made George W. Bush a good president? I'm looking back over his presidency and I don't see one thing that ended up going well.

Here are the reasons why I believe George W. Bush was a good president.

1.  The disarmament of Libya and North Korea.
2.  Keeping the country safe from terrorism pragmatically (waterboarding, DHLS, patriot act)
3.  Improving relations with numerous countries around the world (such as Israel, Britain, Australia)
4.  A strong federal response to the financial meltdown which limited the pervasiveness of the damage.
5.  His understanding that Social Security was on an unsustainable path and needed reforms.
6.  He actually proposed strong regulation of mortgage industry back in 2003, but were never passed.
7.  The War In Iraq will give democracy and freedom to 30,000,000 people and their posterity.
8.  The War In Afghanistan will give democracy and freedom to 20,000,000 people and their posterity.
9.  He implemented domestic initiatives such as No Child Left Behind and Part D for Medicare.
10.  He implemented a vast program to fight AIDs and other diseases in third world countries.

Bush has been victim to libel and asinine conspiracy theories.  He was not an elegant speaker, but he is certainly not low IQ as the media tries to portray him.  One thing I admire about Bush was that he never tried to chase popular opinion polls, and that he was a farsighted man.  Yes, right now, this country is in bad shape, but he has laid the groundwork, in the long-term, for a better world.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I respectfully disagree. What do you think it was that made George W. Bush a good president? I'm looking back over his presidency and I don't see one thing that ended up going well.

Here are the reasons why I believe George W. Bush was a good president.

1.  The disarmament of Libya and North Korea.

North Korea is not disarmed.

2.  Keeping the country safe from terrorism pragmatically (waterboarding, DHLS, patriot act)

I regard torture as a stain on our national honor.  And I consider the Patriot Act a case of throwing out the baby with the bath-water.

3.  Improving relations with numerous countries around the world (such as Israel, Britain, Australia)

I wish he had worked harder on Russia and France.  These three countries are damned near gimmes.

4.  A strong federal response to the financial meltdown which limited the pervasiveness of the damage.

Given that he had a hand in bringing that on, it's the least he could do, but you're right, he was flexible enough to discard dogma and strong enough to bring his party along with him.

5.  His understanding that Social Security was on an unsustainable path and needed reforms.

It's a good thing his privatization of the Social Security system didn't come to fruition.  Had it done so, the Collapse of 2008 would've reduced the assets in such a program by over 40%.

6.  He actually proposed strong regulation of mortgage industry back in 2003, but were never passed.

That had slipped my mind.  Good point.

7.  The War In Iraq will give democracy and freedom to 30,000,000 people and their posterity.

Frankly, given the weakness of their central government, and the religious schisms in the polity, this is very doubtful.

8.  The War In Afghanistan will give democracy and freedom to 20,000,000 people and their posterity.

This too is very doubtful.  The Taliban still has a strong support base, and the corruption of the Karzai government will, in time lead to its downfall, I think.  Edit: Given that the Taliban are as strong as ever, when the Karzai government does fall, they will be the best-positioned to fill the vacuum.

Also, the news today was reporting that the Karzai government is receiving financing from Iran.  That bodes ill for the putative prospects of any Afghan democracy, as well.

9.  He implemented domestic initiatives such as No Child Left Behind and Part D for Medicare.

While noble in purpose, NCLB has resulted in teaching "to the test", rather than teaching for comprehension.  To be fair, this has been an ongoing problem, and wasn't caused, but merely perpetuated and expanded, under NCLB.

10.  He implemented a vast program to fight AIDs and other diseases in third world countries.

At the same time, he forbade charities which received government funding (meaning virtually all of them) from distributing condoms.

Bush has been victim to libel and asinine conspiracy theories.  He was not an elegant speaker, but he is certainly not low IQ as the media tries to portray him.  One thing I admire about Bush was that he never tried to chase popular opinion polls, and that he was a farsighted man.  Yes, right now, this country is in bad shape, but he has laid the groundwork, in the long-term, for a better world.

While I agree that he wasn't nearly as dumb as people portrayed, I disagree with your assessment of him as "far-sighted."  He certainly didn't seem to think at all that Iraqis would rise up against an occupying power, although they have a history of doing so.  He didn't seem to understand that invading Iraq while still fighting in Afghanistan was one of the worst sins of strategy: dispersal of force, which enables defeat in detail.  The "Mission Accomplished" banner says much about his perspicacity.

[tymygy]

What Thump said.

[Will]

Here are the reasons why I believe George W. Bush was a good president.

1.  The disarmament of Libya and North Korea.
2.  Keeping the country safe from terrorism pragmatically (waterboarding, DHLS, patriot act)
3.  Improving relations with numerous countries around the world (such as Israel, Britain, Australia)
4.  A strong federal response to the financial meltdown which limited the pervasiveness of the damage.
5.  His understanding that Social Security was on an unsustainable path and needed reforms.
6.  He actually proposed strong regulation of mortgage industry back in 2003, but were never passed.
7.  The War In Iraq will give democracy and freedom to 30,000,000 people and their posterity.
8.  The War In Afghanistan will give democracy and freedom to 20,000,000 people and their posterity.
9.  He implemented domestic initiatives such as No Child Left Behind and Part D for Medicare.
10.  He implemented a vast program to fight AIDs and other diseases in third world countries.

Bush has been victim to libel and asinine conspiracy theories.  He was not an elegant speaker, but he is certainly not low IQ as the media tries to portray him.  One thing I admire about Bush was that he never tried to chase popular opinion polls, and that he was a farsighted man.  Yes, right now, this country is in bad shape, but he has laid the groundwork, in the long-term, for a better world.

Interesting.

1)
North Korea developed and tested a nuclear weapon during the Bush administration in order to extort money to continue their tyrannical rule over the North Korean people. This was a success. While President Bush can't bear all the blame for this terrible situation, clearly whatever it was Bush did or didn't do about North Korea failed by any metric.

Libya is an interesting situation. For those unaware, after the invasion of Iraq, Libya announced that they would abandon their WMD program and made strong efforts to normalize and even improve relations with the United States and Europe. The move is often attributed to the invasion, but I've not actually seen any concrete proof of that. It seems a case of post hoc ergo proptor hoc, a fallacy of confusing correlation with causation. The fact is, Libya's dramatic shifts in policy started in 1999, not after January of 2001. If anything, the shift can be attributed to the UN and world leaders such as Nelson Mandela. I'd be glad to look at more information on this, but based on what I know of Libya, I don't think President Bush deserves credit.

2)
The largest terrorist attack in American history was carried out under President Bush. Not only that, but after the sweeping executive power grab and dramatic shifts in human rights policy, we suffered an anthrax attack, mailbox pipe bombings, sniper attacks, a shooting at a Jewish Federation building, and IEDs at the Mexican consulate in NYC. More American citizens have died of terrorism under President Bush than any other president in American history. Unfortunately, these are actually quite small compared to what's coming. Blow-back from invading Iraq and Afghanistan, according to experts, will likely make 9/11 look like a minor attack. We've seen international terrorism, especially attacks on the West, rise steadily since 2002.

3)
Our relationship with Israel was put to the test when President Clinton helped to set up the Oslo Accords. The aim of the accords was to find a long-term solution to the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine. What did President Bush to do try and protect Israel in the long term? Sure, by backing off, President Bush was helpful to orthodox hardliners, but they are not all of Israel. Under the Bush Administration, Israel built an illegal wall and expanded settlements into Palestine, against numerous UN resolutions (you'll remember the reason given for the United States invading Iraq was partially because they broke UN resolutions). Israel also attacked and invaded Lebanon, a sovereign nation, and attacked and allegedly committed war crimes against the Gazan people. Regarding Britain and Australia, I don't see how our relationship has changed in the past 30 years.

4)
I agree! While the bailout is highly controversial and might end up enabling banks to take irresponsible risks in the future, it was the right call at the time and it ended up reducing a great deal of damage.

5)
Had President Bush privatized Social Security, as he wished, the entire system would have crashed in October of 2008. Privatized money would have, just as the rest of the market, crashed and still today wouldn't even have its worth. Worse still, the panic from losing Social Security would have made the crash even worse than it was and it's doubtful we could have ever recovered.

6)
I recommended you read this article.

7)
The attack and occupation of Iraq (it's not actually a war, fyi) has conservatively cost between 100,000 and 270,000 Iraqi lives. Our attack enabled al Qaeda and other religious extremist groups to finally move into what was a secular state and take root, which will have long-lasting regional and international repercussions. The election earlier this year reported widespread corruption and voter intimidation. If there ever is a democracy in Iraq, the United States will not be able to take credit for it.


Afghanistan is even worse. The coalition has been losing the occupation for years and it's getting worse. Fighters are pouring across the border from Pakistan every day. The last election? Nearly a quarter of all votes were disqualified. They're no more democratic today than they were under the Taliban. A few years from now, President Obama will have to admit we've lost and will pull out, and Afghanistan will return to the civil war state it was before the invasion.

9)
No Child Left Behind is the worst thing to ever happen to American schools. NCLB narrowly focuses on mathematics and reading, is not based on tested or proven sociology, and it's full of partisan crap like abstinence only and giving private information to military recruiters.

10)
You're spot on about this, too. I forgot about Bush's 2003 plan to fight AIDS in Africa. Theoretically, the plan saves 1.2 million people.

[Sophus]

5. His understanding that Social Security was on an unsustainable path and needed reforms.

You would like for social security to be privatized? Could you explain why? I really don't understand this position.

Had President Bush privatized Social Security, as he wished, the entire system would have crashed in October of 2008. Privatized money would have, just as the rest of the market, crashed and still today wouldn't even have its worth. Worse still, the panic from losing Social Security would have made the crash even worse than it was and it's doubtful we could have ever recovered.

If I remember correctly, some people did take his advice and wound up completely and utterly screwed.

7. The War In Iraq will give democracy and freedom to 30,000,000 people and their posterity.

That wasn't the original excuse. In fact, I loss count how many different reasons they went through for why we were actually in Iraq. Besides, I really doubt everything will be hunky dory once "Democracy Kicks in!"

[youtube:fpkul8h8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlIm-riMN6Q[/youtube:fpkul8h8]

[Prometheus]

I was gonna point out the many flaws in jduster's list but looking at the past few posts...

I think he was a terrible president. Too many knee-jerk reactions to crisises that wound up making the situation worse or having no significant effect at all. The tax breaks were supposed to do wonders for our economy by bringing in investments that might otherwise be lost to rival markets. They did not have that effect it seems(recession came anyway), all they did was benefit people and groups who were already making plenty of money. I saw him as a rich man pretenting to be a man of the people while actually helping the elite rich get richer.

Our new president seems to be making things worse. All I've seen so far is a guy racking up more debt for us while encouraging more able bodied people to suckle at the government teat rather than provide for themselves. What we need is to cut down of unneccessary spending and start working on eliminating our debt. As a culture as well we could do with a tighter grip on our purse strings. Why not invest more of our earnings in our own nation's economy rather than blowing our money on a lot of foreign made goods we mostly don't need. The nature of our economy lends itself to "boom and bust". These reccessions are inevitable but I don't see what throwing money at them as done. After the stock market crash money was put into public works projects which put it right in the pockets of working americans. Of course when this money was spent back then a lot less of it was profitting foreign economies. What our guys are doing now doesn't seem to be working as well.

http://i.imgur.com/Vdk6D.jpg Something interesting to look at.

[DropLogic]

Everyone always spouts off about unnecessary spending.  Does anyone actually know where all their tax dollars go?
http://www.federalbudget.com/

Department of Defense: $900 billion
Department of Education: $90 billion


Anyone see a problem here?

[Thumpalumpacus]

DL, if you've ever read Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, you'll see the dangers inherent in such spending priorities.  Throughout history, fading empires have triggered their own eclipses by pouring money into the visible symbols of power, rather than R&D, resource development, and commercial competitiveness.

This is the real significance of the Reagan Revolution in America: it makes every politician terrified to cut defense spending and reset military priorities, for fear of being called "weak on defense".  Americans don't stop to think what return on investment we get from maintaining five divisions (15,000 men each) and at least five combat wings (72 planes and four or five thousand men each) in Germany, Japan, the UK, Korea, Italy, Greece, and Turkey.  (Note: this doesn't include ancillary troops such as HQ units, individual reinforcement battalions, and so forth.

That's an awful lot of money being thrown away.

[DropLogic]

DL, if you've ever read Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, you'll see the dangers inherent in such spending priorities.  Throughout history, fading empires have triggered their own eclipses by pouring money into the visible symbols of power, rather than R&D, resource development, and commercial competitiveness.

This is the real significance of the Reagan Revolution in America: it makes every politician terrified to cut defense spending and reset military priorities, for fear of being called "weak on defense".  Americans don't stop to think what return on investment we get from maintaining five divisions (15,000 men each) and at least five combat wings (72 planes and four or five thousand men each) in Germany, Japan, the UK, Korea, Italy, Greece, and Turkey.  (Note: this doesn't include ancillary troops such as HQ units, individual reinforcement battalions, and so forth.

That's an awful lot of money being thrown away.

Yeah I talked about this in another thread.  We have 716 military bases around the world.  Hundreds of thousands of soldiers in places that haven't seen war since the 50's.